October 11, 2003

So Much for Rooting for the...

So Much for Rooting for the Red Sox: I see on the news now where Don Zimmer was taken to a hospital after the game.... Maybe I missed it, but not once did I hear the teevee announcers mention that Zimmer was one of the most famous beaning victims in Major League history, losing two seasons, derailing a promising career, and leading to a metal plate being inserted into his skull. So maybe he had an extra reason to be annoyed when Pedro Martinez motioned to the Yankee bench that he'd happily hit anyone square in the noggin....

Posted by at October 11, 2003 06:35 PM
Comments

Kennedy mentioned all that in the studio (though maybe it was after the game). Pedro's headhunting might lose the Red Sox another postseason. If it's not one thing it's another. Pedro really has that bad karma coming on that headhunting nonsense. He actually really needs to get his own head clubbed a few times...

ON THE OTHER HAND... I can remember when David Cone was with the Yankees, and he was perhaps even more of a headhunter (no gay jokes) than Pedro...

Posted by: ct at October 11, 2003 07:36 PM

Cone use to think Mark McGuire's head was a catcher's mit.

ON THE OTHER HAND: The A's in the late 80s early 90s were known for aggressively pitching inside and hit more batters than any team probably in history. Dave Stewart hit people then stared them down then told them not to steal.

Posted by: ct at October 11, 2003 07:51 PM

Zimmer attacked Pedro, and Pedro set him down quite politely. If guys like Zimmer want to join the fracas by attacking younger and stronger guys like Pedro, they'd best have their medical premiums paid up.

Posted by: Richard Bennett at October 12, 2003 01:46 AM

The Red Sox have collectively lost their minds and their exhibitions after clinching the wild card and the ALDS were indicative that the whole team needs an intervention. Pedro, Manny, Derek Lowe, BK Kim, David Ortiz and Kevin Millar have the collective maturity of preschoolers and if they really wanted to beat the Skankees they needed to focus on baseball. Like Jim Brown said 'Act like you've been there before'. Manny Ramirez should have been ejected for going out with the bat but it actually helped the Skankees that he wasn't. He's bailing on an outside fastball and strikes out then grounds into what was essentially the game ending DP. I'm not convinced Pedro was throwing at Garcia because if he was why didn't he just drill him instead of throwing behind him with runners on second and third. But since he's got about 2 functioning brain cells who knows. Zimmer's an idiot, and he always was. He's supposedly a coach and should be trying to protect his players but he's got a plate in his head so maybe that's his excuse for running on the field. I'm sure he's so upset about someone getting hit that he had to rush Pedro like he rushed Clemens when he hit Mike Piazza in the head. Truly classy move by Jeff Nelson and Karen Garcia. The groundscrew guy that Nelson jumped had to be treated for spike wounds on his arms and back. Nice kick fight girls.

Posted by: Jack Tanner at October 12, 2003 08:26 AM

Pedro didn't help his own cause by pointing to his head while yelling at Posada in the dugout after hitting the ducking Garcia in the back. Selig won't do anything right now, but a couple of people may be sitting out the first game or two of the regular season (even more so for Pedro if the Sox come back and win the series with Martinez winning Game 6, and the New York media goes into full-bore outrage).

Posted by: John at October 12, 2003 09:46 AM

Having now had time to read the news and watch the video ... I'm on Pedro's side on this one.

First, I don't think Pedro intentionally hit Garcia.

Second, he's a fiery competitor and I don't object, per se, to the trash talk going on, so long as it doesn't get out of hand.

Third, when it did get out of hand, Zimmer was clearly at fault and Pedro handled the situation as well as could be expected -- deflecting Zimmer's charge and backing away.

Posted by: Howard Owens at October 12, 2003 01:49 PM

Oh, forgot my final thought -- however, this could be one of those incidents that further "confirms" the Myth of the Bambino. If the Yankee's sweep the next two games, playing fired up baseball, the reason will be they will be fired up by seeing Zimmer go down, and by Pedro's trash talk. It will add further poetry to the Myth that Zimmer attacked Pedro.

Posted by: Howard Owens at October 12, 2003 01:50 PM

Howard-

I don't know if Pedro meant to hit Garcia, but he was clearly throwing at him. No way in hell that was a pitch that got away, you could see perfectly well by the way it left his hand pposed to go. And Garcia aggravated the situation after that, but things got "out of hand" when Pedro made the "I'll hit you too" motions to Posada et al. There's no other reasonable construction of what was going on there, and Pedro should've been ejected at that point, period, and the umps fucked up by not doing it. How can you leave a pitcher in the game after he tells the opposing batters he'll bean them? What kind of ridiculous advantage is that? And I usually hate Clemens, but he deserves kudos for controlling himself. The "retaliatory" pitch to Manny Ramirez was a token at most.

Posted by: spacetoast at October 12, 2003 02:15 PM

Howard -- Dude, that pitch was SO intentional ... even some Red Sox players basically said as much. Pedro's point-at-the-head deal was outrageous, though entertaining. And yeah, Zimmer's out of his idiot charging at Pedro, and you could say that it was all self-defense ... but he could have also easily evaded/faked out Mr. Human Bowling Ball, without placing his hands on his head and hurling him into the grass.

But this bullpen thing just gets curiouser ... now the Yankees are being investigated for battery?? Let's just pray for a Game Seven....

Posted by: Matt Welch at October 12, 2003 02:32 PM

And another thing...

It's supposed to be such terrible strategy to bean Garcia, therefore Pedro couldn't possibly have been throwing at him. But no outs second and third in the top of the fourth is exactly when you might want to walk a batter (even Garcia with Soriano on deck) to set up the double play, especially if you had impeccable control like Pedro...and actually especially since Soriano is such a free-swinger. Granted, the run that scores on the double play was the difference in the game, but in that situation you trade that run for two outs, no question, unless you're facing Nolan Ryan or whatever...Clemens didn't look anything like unbeatable in the first three innings. I don't care so much about the incident with Zimmer, but everything that happens after Pedro threatens to bean everyone in the dugout is Pedro's fault. Imo, he deserves all the pennies they want to chuck at him if it goes back to the Bronx.

Posted by: spacetoast at October 12, 2003 04:17 PM

Don Zimmer got less than he deserved. A member of the coaching staff running onto the field, swinging fifts and assaulting a member of the other team deserves to:

A.) Have his ass kicked
B.) Be ejected from the game
C.) Be fined heavily by the league
D.) Suspended for the rest of the series
E.) Bad mouthed by the Yankee sycophant announcers
F.) Booed by Yankee and Red Sox fans for his boorish behavior and bad judgement
G.) Fired by George Steinbrenner for senility and creating bad PR.

Instead, none of these things have happened, and you have taken the bait from the Yankee fans and are now turning the boor Zimmer into some sort of a victim. Despite his obnoxious and offensive antics in the game, Pedro Martinez was the one being attacked, and all he did was dodge partially and push the ragin bull to the ground. I don't care if he is 105, if Don Zimmer came running at me swinging, I would have punched him right back and knocked him on his fat ass. Pedro was much more restrained.

Posted by: John Cole at October 12, 2003 05:11 PM

John-

You're nuts, dude. Zimmer was the one who behaved like a child...because Pedro openly threatened to decapitate his catcher. Pedro behaved like a thug, and a weasely one at that.

"antics" = a 90 mile an hour fastball in the head?

"ragin[sic] bulm, Ramirez. He's been hit 11 times in Clemens' last 13 starts against Bosox. Boston has continually complained about inequitable umpiring; Martinez, with less than half as many hit batsmen as Clemens, has been warned far more often...as have other Bosox pitchers despite the disparity of 3 to 1. BTW, Clemens has hit more Bosox batters shoulder and higher than chest and below.

3) If Zimmer hadn't hit the ground, he would have been ejected from the game and suspended for the series. So says MLB official sitting in box next to Ben (or was it Matt?)
Zim properly played the sympathy card for all it was worth by feigning injury. He was actually winded from running so far and hurting his hand hitting Martinez...who himself was standing along the first base line and not joining the melee.

4) Read Zim's autobiography...he doesn't have a steel plate in his head. He was trepaned by drilling 4 holes in head to relieve pressure. He has 4 buttons sealing the holes...maybe he popped a couple? That would be my excuse.

5) Besides Garcia hopping the fence and assaulting a Red Sox employee waving a rally towel, two other Yankees, including Jeff Nelson, stomped the man who was taken to the hospital with cleat marks in his back and injured neck.
Charges are pending. Police still investigating but sources in Boston say that case will be filed when courts next open in Roxbury District on Tuesday AM.

Posted by: Huh? at October 12, 2003 06:06 PM

I find it humorous that when a bunch of overpaid "athletes" resort to juvenile behavior in a playoff game, commentators--paid and amateur, on TV and online--sit around trying to figure out who was more of a jackass than who. Who cares?!?!

I'm with AndyMac: This is just another reason why the American League should drop the Designated Hitter rule. It goes against tradition, it gives fatass, overpaid "athletes" yet another way to prolong their careers, and it gives too much protection to jackass pitchers like Roger and Pedro to throw inside without having to worry about retaliation.

Posted by: Andrew at October 12, 2003 06:18 PM

I think it's all pretty funny, mostly. Specially watching Zimmer trying to run.

Posted by: Matt Welch at October 12, 2003 06:35 PM

Pedro hit Garcia intentionally. I don't even think that's debatable at this point, especially in light of the "I'm going to hit you in the head" comments that followed.

About Zimmer...I don't think we'll see many guys like him in the future. I'm not saying he should have rushed Pedro, but you've gotta admire the toughness of a guy who at 72 years old rushes a guy four decades his junior (and in top physical shape) in defense of his own pitchers. I was worried about him at first, but I was glad to see him laughing in the dugout afterward.

Posted by: Nik at October 12, 2003 07:48 PM

Getting hit in the head should merit a two base walk for the batter and automatic ejection for the pitcher. You could add assault with a deadly weapon if it's intentional.

Posted by: Ken Hirsch at October 12, 2003 08:34 PM

John-

I really don't care about Zimmer. And your "boor" comment didn't offend me, it was just stupid. Anyway, my point was that you got it backwards. What Zimmer did is fairly and accurately describable as "antics." What Pedro did is fairly and accurately describable as "throwing a baseball really fast at someone's head"...with the explicit promise of seconds. The latter is etiologically prior to and more fucked up than the former, and therefore the more noteworthy misfeasance. Pedro is the bigger jackass.

Posted by: spacetoast at October 12, 2003 11:38 PM

This brings up a point: if you hit people (Pedro AND Clemens big criminals in this department) but are more circumspect about it (Clemens), is it less of a crime?

And why hasn't anybody beat the hell out of a pitcher - after charging the mound - in my lifetime?

Posted by: ct at October 13, 2003 01:08 AM

'Getting hit in the head should merit a two base walk for the batter and automatic ejection for the pitcher.'

Who got hit in the head? Kevin Millar in July?

'It would be a disaster for the league if two Yankees get arrested or the groundkeeper sues. Look for this to be hushed up.'

A little late now. Nelson and Garcia are going to be arraigned in Roxbury District Court tomorrow based on the police testimony. I feel they should be held without bail due to the viciousness of their attack and the fact that they're a threat to the community, and that they're Skankees.


'Pedro hit Garcia intentionally.'

He didn't hit him at all. Garcia ducked and it hit his bat.

'About Zimmer...I don't think we'll see many guys like him in the future. I'm not saying he should have rushed Pedro, but you've gotta admire the toughness of a guy who at 72 years old rushes a guy four decades his junior (and in top physical shape) in defense of his own pitchers.'

WTF? Zimmer is supposed to be a coach eventhough he's only a mascot. His only business on the field in an altercation is to keep his players under control not to be an instigator. Maybe this will keep other teams from having senile retards as their bench coaches.

Rainout is excellent news for the Red Sox. Lowe will start game 5 at home.

Posted by: Jack Tanner at October 13, 2003 05:01 AM

'especially if you had impeccable control like Pedro'

Pedro does not have impeccable control. He doesn't pitch to the corners. He doesn't walk a lot of guys because he doesn't dick around. He throws to zones and he relies on keeping guys off stride. When he gets hit it's because the changeup drifts over the plate or he hangs a curve like he did to Jeter. He lost a perfect game by hitting a guy with Montreal.

Posted by: Jack Tanner at October 13, 2003 05:16 AM

I heard that he was the victim of the most famous beaning incident. Oh wait, that was the husband's running commentary, not the announcers.

Posted by: Justene at October 13, 2003 05:46 AM

Justene, are you trying to compete with Matt Welch for references that really need to be explained...?

The most damning comment on this subject thus far has been the observation that the 'human bowling ball' didn't come running out of the dugout to attack Roger Clemens when he beaned Piazza directly in the head... (YEAH!)

Then, of course, there was MY observation that the Yankees were the home of perhaps the most prodigious headhunter of the modern era: David Cone. So... Let's not shed too many tears...

Posted by: ct at October 13, 2003 06:32 AM

I'm glad to see the Yankees are so tough that they let an old man fight for them and then don't back him up after he is tasting the first base line. What a bunch of pussies.

Posted by: MaB at October 13, 2003 06:53 AM

"...perhaps the most prodigious headhunter of the modern era: David Cone."

Sweet Jesus. Was Bob Gibson really that long ago?

My; the fun flies when you're doin' time.

Posted by: Billy Beck at October 13, 2003 07:31 AM

Martinez is a nut with the IQ of a retarded goat. Clemens is an ass with a good press agent. Zimmer is every bit the nut and the ass, but at least he had the balls to go out there and knock someone's head off for the bullshit that was passed off as 'playing baseball' on Saturday.

Yes, it was stupid for a 72 year-old walrus to attack a pro athlete forty years his junior. But Jeebus on a bike!... while the multi-million dollar pansies were pointing at, whining about and slapping each other, that geriatric got up to try and settle an account with very plain language. I'm just thankful that Zim's Depends diapers were there to break the fall.

Fuck Selig, fuck the umpires, fuck both teams' owners, and fuck the American League for not leashing its dogs properly. The game made great press, but MLB apparently has forgotten that when it lets its players act the ass (see: players' strikes, stupid antics, et al), the fans go elsewhere. Let's clon2:57 PM

Jeez, is this incident really so ruinous to baseball? I just re-read Al Stump's terrific biography of Ty Cobb, and if the sport can survive that murderous son of bitch, it can survive Pedro and Zim's push-fighting.

When Ty got into a fight with a Yankee in the 20s -- trying to draw out Babe Ruth, who he hated -- they had 1,000 fans rush the field and start pounding each other. The contest was declared a forfeit to the Yankees. But the game survived: in fact, betting was considered a bigger threat to the pasttime than brawling.

Posted by: Brian at October 13, 2003 03:46 PM

I was in Fenway for the wake -- er, game yesterday.

The brawling, the controversy...it may not be bad for baseball, but it sure is bad for the Red Sox. A little less attitude, fellas -- a little more professionalism. The Yankees don't need to cut their hair to win. They're already batting guys from first to third like they were catching the morning bus.

Here's hoping for a good game today, but my heart's not in it.

One funny incident yesterday: when Garcia got to the plate, the crowd starting chanting "Jailbird, Jailbird." Don't know if you could hear that on TV.

Posted by: chandler at October 15, 2003 08:17 AM
Post a comment









Remember personal info?






oat. Clemens is an ass with a good press agent. Zimmer is every bit the nut and the ass, but at least he had the balls to go out there and knock someone's head off for the bullshit that was passed off as 'playing baseball' on Saturday.

Yes, it was stupid for a 72 year-old walrus to attack a pro athlete forty years his junior. But Jeebus on a bike!... while the multi-million dollar pansies were pointing at, whining about and slapping each other, that geriatric got up to try and settle an account with very plain language. I'm just thankful that Zim's Depends diapers were there to break the fall.

Fuck Selig, fuck the umpires, fuck both teams' owners, and fuck the American League for not leashing its dogs properly. The game made great press, but MLB apparently has forgotten that when it lets its players act the ass (see: players' strikes, stupid antics, et al), the fans go elsewhere. Let's clone Ted Kennedy and have the Teds drive the teams' busses over a long, slippery bridge. Then we can start over.

Posted by: Scooooott at October 13, 2003 02:57 PM

Jeez, is this incident really so ruinous to baseball? I just re-read Al Stump's terrific biography of Ty Cobb, and if the sport can survive that murderous son of bitch, it can survive Pedro and Zim's push-fighting.

When Ty got into a fight with a Yankee in the 20s -- trying to draw out Babe Ruth, who he hated -- they had 1,000 fans rush the field and start pounding each other. The contest was declared a forfeit to the Yankees. But the game survived: in fact, betting was considered a bigger threat to the pasttime than brawling.

Posted by: Brian at October 13, 2003 03:46 PM

I was in Fenway for the wake -- er, game yesterday.

The brawling, the controversy...it may not be bad for baseball, but it sure is bad for the Red Sox. A little less attitude, fellas -- a little more professionalism. The Yankees don't need to cut their hair to win. They're already batting guys from first to third like they were catching the morning bus.

Here's hoping for a good game today, but my heart's not in it.

One funny incident yesterday: when Garcia got to the plate, the crowd starting chanting "Jailbird, Jailbird." Don't know if you could hear that on TV.

Posted by: chandler at October 15, 2003 08:17 AM
Post a comment









Remember personal info?






= true; } else { document.comments_form.bakecookie[1].checked = true; } //--> /body> ments_form.bakecookie[1].checked = true; } //--> = true; } else { document.comments_form.bakecookie[1].checked = true; } //--> /body>